Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

The law: Part 75 of the Civil Procedure Rules.
#1) 

Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 04 Jul 2013 11:10

Please help as the car is due to be sold by bailiff in the next fe days

My car have been removed by Marston, 3 weeks ago and I have now been threatened that unless I pay their unexplained extortionate amount they will be selling the car by 10th July.

I brought the car from an unknown person. I had no knowledge of any outstanding PCN. I paid the seller and transaction was completed. As I did not have insurance I left the car at the seller place and collected the key and log book.

When I returned to collect my car the next day the car had already gone. I was told the car was removed by Marston. I wrote to Marston, they refused to release the vehicle stating that they had followed all procedure correctly. They asked for documents which I gave it to them.
I then contacted Newham making a formal complaint but it appears that Newham is now going along with their Contractor. Newham asked for documents which I sent including a sworn affidavit, log book and sale receipt. They now refused to release the car stating that the contractor has acted lawfully.

I am thinking of proceeding to Form N208 claim injunction to release the car.

I see in our forum you have previously assisted client with replevin claim and wondered if you would be kind enough to give me some of your sample POC for Replevin. Or if you could please advise the best way forward to reclaim my car.


Thank you.
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#2) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 04 Jul 2013 11:21

bcm wrote:Please help as the car is due to be sold by bailiff in the next fe days

My car have been removed by Marston, 3 weeks ago and I have now been threatened that unless I pay their unexplained extortionate amount they will be selling the car by 10th July.

I brought the car from an unknown person. I had no knowledge of any outstanding PCN. I paid the seller and transaction was completed. As I did not have insurance I left the car at the seller place and collected the key and log book.

When I returned to collect my car the next day the car had already gone. I was told the car was removed by Marston. I wrote to Marston, they refused to release the vehicle stating that they had followed all procedure correctly. They asked for documents which I gave it to them.
I then contacted Newham making a formal complaint but it appears that Newham is now going along with their Contractor. Newham asked for documents which I sent including a sworn affidavit, log book and sale receipt. They now refused to release the car stating that the contractor has acted lawfully.

I am thinking of proceeding to Form N208 claim injunction to release the car.

I see in our forum you have previously assisted client with replevin claim and wondered if you would be kind enough to give me some of your sample POC for Replevin. Or if you could please advise the best way forward to reclaim my car.


Thank you.

Reply from Newham

Dear Mr X

Re: Removal of vehicle

I refer to your letter of the 13th June regarding the removal of the above vehicle on the 17th May which you contend belongs to you.

The background to this case relates to enforcement of a PCN against who is the registered keeper of the vehicle. Under s.15 of The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993, a Warrant of Execution against goods binds the property in the name of the respondent which means Mr Y had no right to dispose of the vehicle.

Immediately prior to the removal action the bailiffs carried out vehicle checks which showed the registered keeper of the vehicle still to be Mr Y and the vehicle was located at the address of the keeper. The bailiff spoke to Mr Y (This is a lie Mr Y was not present) who made no mention of any sale and who also made it clear he was unable/unwilling to pay the debt. On this basis the vehicle was authorised for removal.

I understand that shortly after the vehicle was removed you contacted the bailiffs claiming that you had purchased the vehicle. In the conversation with the bailiffs you were asked to provide evidence that a transaction had taken place but could not provide anything. At the time the vehicle was removed, the vehicle was registered in the debtor’s name, was parked at their address, insured in the debtor’s name, and no bill of sale or evidence of a payment made by you could be provided to substantiate your claim to be the new owner of the vehicle. The bailiffs did not accept your claim and informed you of their intention to proceed with the sale.

On 20th June, a call was received by Mrs A (Complaints Officer) from Ms. K Mrs Adeyeri informed Ms. K of the documentary evidence which need to be sent to prove the vehicle was yours at the time the vehicle was removed. They are:-

• A letter from the DVLA dated prior to when the vehicle was seized showing a request for the keeper details to be amended;
• A certificate of insurance in your name for the vehicle dated prior to when the vehicle was seized;
• Bill of sale or a valid receipt of purchase dated prior to when the vehicle was seized (preferably not hand written);
• Evidence of flow of monies for the purchase of the vehicle dated prior to the date of seizure. (I.e. bank statement);
• A copy of the full V5 Log book, processed by the DVLA prior to the date of our seizure of the vehicle;
• A copy of the advert of sale of the vehicle dated prior to the date of seizure.

4 out of the above 6 items must be provided with the certificate of insurance as a key requirement.

On 26th June 2013, an email was received from Ms K providing a hand written sale agreement and the V5c/2 form showing the new keepers details. The email also stated that you are awaiting the VO5 documents from DVLA. Unfortunately, the documents which has been provided at this point is not sufficient for the release of the vehicle and if you wish to pursue your claim of ownership and prevent the sale you must issue proceedings with the Court against the bailiffs and it will be for the judge to decide if you have a case.

Yours sincerely,



Service Area Manager
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#3) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby Amy » 04 Jul 2013 14:18

Did you send a Formal Complaint letter along these lines:

[HEAD OF TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear Sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Removal of vehicle [MAKE AND MODEL] registration [ABC123]

I
make this formal complaint because a bailiff on [DATE] collecting an unknown PCN and took my aforementioned vehicle on [DATE OF KNOWN].
To resolve this complaint:

1. Return the vehicle to the location it was taken from

2. pay me the sum of £10 per day the vehicle was removed to the date the vehicle was returned

3. pay me the sum of £[AMOUNT] in special damages and miscellaneous costs

I will approach you again to discuss payment of my rental car invoice when the total costs are known, and for any damage caused to the vehicle while it was in your possession.

I am unable to discuss this matter with your enforcement contractor because I am not the person receiving your PCN and I understand responsibility for your contractor lies with you.

If you are unable or unwilling to satisfy this complaint by 10.30am in 7 day time baing [DATE], please be sure to clearly mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

In the absence of a positive reply by this date then I will automatically escalate the complaint to the Ombudsman on the grounds of failure to comply with the prescribed complaints procedure.

Yours faithfully.

[YOUR NAME]
Cc – [NAME OF BAILIFF COMPANY]


If you have sent a letter similar to the above, then you may ask the Local Government Commissioner to intervene under Section 26 of the Local Government Act 1974. They can order the Council to stop all enforcement action, return your car plus they have the power to order the Council to pay you compensation.

Have you checked this bailiff is certificated, as he must be in order to collect a PCN? You can check that here http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov ... dBailiffs/

If he is not certificate, have a read of this http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Ba ... ficate.htm
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#4) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 04 Jul 2013 14:34

Hi Amy,

Thank you for your email. I sent a similar letter but the Council came back with the above respond. Telling to go to Court against the bailiff.
Please can you advice me what else I can do as they have refused to release the vehicle.

Thanks
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#5) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 04 Jul 2013 15:05

Amy wrote:Did you send a Formal Complaint letter along these lines:

[HEAD OF TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear Sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Removal of vehicle [MAKE AND MODEL] registration [ABC123]

I
make this formal complaint because a bailiff on [DATE] collecting an unknown PCN and took my aforementioned vehicle on [DATE OF KNOWN].
To resolve this complaint:

1. Return the vehicle to the location it was taken from

2. pay me the sum of £10 per day the vehicle was removed to the date the vehicle was returned

3. pay me the sum of £[AMOUNT] in special damages and miscellaneous costs

I will approach you again to discuss payment of my rental car invoice when the total costs are known, and for any damage caused to the vehicle while it was in your possession.

I am unable to discuss this matter with your enforcement contractor because I am not the person receiving your PCN and I understand responsibility for your contractor lies with you.

If you are unable or unwilling to satisfy this complaint by 10.30am in 7 day time baing [DATE], please be sure to clearly mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

In the absence of a positive reply by this date then I will automatically escalate the complaint to the Ombudsman on the grounds of failure to comply with the prescribed complaints procedure.

Yours faithfully.

[YOUR NAME]
Cc – [NAME OF BAILIFF COMPANY]


If you have sent a letter similar to the above, then you may ask the Local Government Commissioner to intervene under Section 26 of the Local Government Act 1974. They can order the Council to stop all enforcement action, return your car plus they have the power to order the Council to pay you compensation.

Have you checked this bailiff is certificated, as he must be in order to collect a PCN? You can check that here http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov ... dBailiffs/

If he is not certificate, have a read of this http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Ba ... ficate.htm


I have checked and he is certified. Do you have any sample letters to sent to LGO and can you please guide to make appliction to the Court for the car to be released. Can you
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#6) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby Amy » 04 Jul 2013 15:08

You need to do what it says in the letter; contact the Ombudsman http://www.lgo.org.uk/ and ask they intervene on your behalf and sort this mess out.
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#7) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby monkeynuts » 04 Jul 2013 15:59

A simple affidavit to prove the car is your issued to the bailiffs and council will trump the V5 bumf they are asking.

Then should you take them to court for selling your car you hold all the cards and can claim for a new car!

There are some sample affidavits floating around in the PCN section I will dig one out for you!
http://www.suethebailiff.co.uk
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#8) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 04 Jul 2013 16:12

Hi Monkeynuts,
I have done that a affidavit signed in front of a solicitors was sent to the Council, yet thet refused to release the car and advised me to issue proceeding against the bailiffs.
I am not sure what else to do, I m thinking of issuing Court proceedings to recover the vehicle, any help with the witness statement would be much appreciated.
Thank you very much for your help.
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#9) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby monkeynuts » 04 Jul 2013 16:23

YOu need to inform the council THEY are liable for their agents actions (ie the bailiffs)

[HEAD OF TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear Sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Removal of vehicle [MAKE AND MODEL] registration [ABC123]

I
make this formal complaint because a bailiff on [DATE] collecting an unknown PCN and took my aforementioned vehicle on [DATE OF KNOWN].
To resolve this complaint:

1. Return the vehicle to the location it was taken from

2. pay me the sum of £10 per day the vehicle was removed to the date the vehicle was returned

3. pay me the sum of £[AMOUNT] in special damages and miscellaneous costs

I will approach you again to discuss payment of my rental car invoice when the total costs are known, and for any damage caused to the vehicle while it was in your possession.

I am unable to discuss this matter with your enforcement contractor because I am not the person receiving your PCN and I understand responsibility for your contractor lies with you.

If you are unable or unwilling to satisfy this complaint by 10.30am in 7 day time baing [DATE], please be sure to clearly mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

In the absence of a positive reply by this date then I will automatically escalate the complaint to the Ombudsman on the grounds of failure to comply with the prescribed complaints procedure.

Yours faithfully.

[YOUR NAME]
Cc – [NAME OF BAILIFF COMPANY]


Fax / EMAIL / Hand Deliver something like this to the CEO of the council and the Head of Parking. Ring them and spell it out for them word for word - tell them should they not get their agents to release your car you will be issuing court proceedings against them as they use the bailiffs on their behalf and therefore are liable.
http://www.suethebailiff.co.uk
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#10) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 06 Jul 2013 00:08

bcm wrote:Hi Monkeynuts,
I have done that a affidavit signed in front of a solicitors was sent to the Council, yet thet refused to release the car and advised me to issue proceeding against the bailiffs. .


You issue proceedings against the council, and this article shows what damages you can recover.

I wouldn't sue the bailiffs as a sole defendant because the council is liable for any wrongful action made by bailiffs under their charge.

If you want to, you can take this as an opportunity to exploit this and get a nice new car and a few quid out of it. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Re ... Tenner.htm
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#11) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 09 Jul 2013 11:38

Afther serving the Court here with prohibit Council from selling the vehilce, I got this response, please help. thanks

RE: Request for the release of Vehicle

I refer to your email of 3rd July and attached letter dated 14th June 2013 in which you stated that the complaint remains unresolved as “final resolution” was not marked on our response dated 26th June 2013 and your further email of 5th July sent to Ms Ade which had an Injunction Order form County Court attached.

Please be informed that your initial correspondence with the council dated 14th June was dealt with as an enquiry and not a complaint because it is in relation to an open Penalty Charge Notice and is something that you could go to court about. In general, matters relating to penalty charge notices are dealt with under procedures set out in the Traffic Management Act 2004 and are exempt from the Council’s complaints procedure.

According to our records, you have provided the following:

• Hand written sales agreement
• V5C showing new keeper
• V5C/2 new keeper supplement
• A sworn Affidavit
• A picture of the vehicle's keys
• A copy of your driver's licence
• A MOT Certificate

In our previous correspondence, we informed you that the documentation needed for the release of the vehicle is as follows:

• A letter from the DVLA dated prior to when the vehicle was seized showing a request for the keeper details to be amended;
• A certificate of insurance in your name for the vehicle dated prior to when the vehicle was seized;
• Bill of sale or a valid receipt of purchase dated prior to when the vehicle was seized (preferably not hand written);
• Evidence of flow of monies for the purchase of the vehicle dated prior to the date of seizure. (I.e. bank statement);
• A copy of the full V5 Log book, processed by the DVLA prior to the date of our seizure of the vehicle;
• A copy of the advert of sale of the vehicle dated prior to the date of seizure.

At least 4 out of the above 6 items must be provided with the certificate of insurance as a key requirement. You have provided 2 out of the 6 items and have not provided the Certificate of insurance.

According to section 15 of the Enforcement and Road Traffic Debt Order 1993 a warrant of execution against goods issued by an authority shall bind the property in the goods of the respondent from the time of which the warrant was issued to the enforcement officer. Therefore ------- was not legally allowed to sell or dispose of the vehicle until the warrant was discharged.

I appreciate that section 15 of the act is subject to paragraph 2 which states that “Such a warrant shall not prejudice the title to any goods of the respondent acquired by a person in good faith and for valuable consideration unless he had at the time when he acquired his title—

(a) Notice that an application for the issue of a warrant of execution against the goods of the respondent had been made to the district judge of a county court and that the warrant issued on the application remained unexecuted in the hands of the district judge of that court or of another court to which the warrant had been sent for execution;

(b) Notice that a writ of fieri facias or other writ of execution by virtue of which the respondent’s goods might be seized or attached had been delivered to and remained unexecuted in the hands of the sheriff; or

(c) Notice that an authority had made a request to issue a warrant against the respondent’s goods and that the warrant issued after that request remained unexecuted”.

However, you have not been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you bought the vehicle in good faith. For this reason, I would advise that you take the case up with the vendor who may have sold the vehicle to you illegally.

As stated previously, this is not being dealt with as a complaint for the reason mentioned above and this response is our final resolution subject to you providing more evidence to prove ownership.

In our previous response you were advised that if you wish to pursue your claim of ownership of the vehicle and prevent the sale you must issue proceedings with the Court against the bailiffs and it will be for the judge to decide if you have a case. The Injunction order which you have sent shows that you have issued proceedings against the Council. The Order has forbidden the Council from selling or parting with possession of vehicle from and after service of the order but does not order the Council to release the vehicle. I can confirm that the bailiffs have not sold the vehicle but as the documents you have provided at this point are not deemed to be sufficient for the release of the vehicle, they will hold unto it until they can prove ownership of the vehicle.

I trust my response addresses your concerns and the information provided is useful.
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#12) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby monkeynuts » 09 Jul 2013 12:19

Bit of a cop out that!

The council are liable for their agents actions under The Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996 ... tents/made

So its no good them saying "issue proceedings against the bailiff" they are fully aware of this when they entered into the contract with them.

Next step is to start court proceedings and name Council as 1st defendant bailiff company as 2nd defendant and bailiff as 3rd defendant.

You can also now ask the Ombudsman to get involved as they are not dealing with your complaint. ;-) personally Id go down the n1 route - shorter timescale and you can claim damages.
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#13) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 09 Jul 2013 12:46

I have issued proceeding now and the hearing in the next 2 week. Please can you have a look the application please which I emailed as I have to attend the hearing


monkeynuts wrote:Bit of a cop out that!

The council are liable for their agents actions under The Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996 ... tents/made

So its no good them saying "issue proceedings against the bailiff" they are fully aware of this when they entered into the contract with them.

Next step is to start court proceedings and name Council as 1st defendant bailiff company as 2nd defendant and bailiff as 3rd defendant.

You can also now ask the Ombudsman to get involved as they are not dealing with your complaint. ;-) personally Id go down the n1 route - shorter timescale and you can claim damages.
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#14) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 09 Jul 2013 13:19

Hi this is the w/s I used to have the recent Order mde by the Court. As I said the next hearing is in 2 weeks time and wouod appreciaet your advice

STATEMENT OF CLAIMANT

I ……………………………… , say as follows:

1. That on 05 June 2013 Whyte & Co the Second Defendant a commercial enforcement company who The Claimant understands is under contract for the First defendant appeared at The Claimants address and -------------------------------

2. Used an immobilisation device on the Claimants vehicle, a Mercedes registration ………. which was parked at The Street E1. The keeper is SN ……. and his vehicle is registered at his own address which is NW11…….

3. The immobilisation device was used on the vehicle by the Second defendant who said there is an unpaid Penalty Charge Notice due to the First Defendant.

4. On 17 May 2013 the Claimant brought the vehicle from person understand is …………………………………….. Appendix SN1 & SN2

5. The Claimant was unaware of any outstanding PCN and bailiff failed to show any warrant of execution. Appendix SK2

6. No Notice of Seizure was left – The Claimant does not except liability of any Penalty Charge Notices.

7. The Claimant understands that the alleged PCN was issued prior to buying the vehicle and Claimant deny any knowledge of outstanding Penalty Charge Notices.

8. The Claimant believes that this seizure of his vehicle is irregular distress and invalid levy;
a) Levying on goods in the owner’s absence Ambrose v Nottingham Council
b) Levying or removing vehicle somebody’s else liability
c) Removing goods in the absence of owner – paragraph 36 of the Judge’s summing up in the case of Khazanchi v another v Faircharm Investment Ltd & another [1998]
d) It is wrongful for possession of goods (or vehicles) to be retained and payment being refused, Holland v Bird 2 LJCP 201
e) It is no defence for bailiffs to say the fees are "universal custom of the trade" or claim that statutory fees are too low so to permit deliberate over-charging, Black v Standage & Price [1831], The Times June 27, 6e.
f) Levying on somebody else's goods or on the wrong vehicle: The fees must be refunded, page 6 and 7 of 11 of the Local Government Ombudsman report on 29 November 2012
g) Bailiffs have a duty to protect the creditor AND the debtor as well as having a duty to protect the poor from abuse and should normally err on the side of caution and generous treatment of debtors, Taylor v Ashworth [1910] 129 LT 578 or Harrison v Mearing [1843] The Times May 10 8b Exch.
h) Substantial damages can be claimed for illegal distress even without any proof of actual damage, the levy only needs to be shown to have been illegal, Interoven Stove Co Ltd v F.W.H Hibbard and another [1936] 1 All ER 263
i) Bailiffs can only enforce payment of a debt at the address shown on the warrant or writ: Huntress Search Limited (Claimant) v Canapeum Limited (Defendant) and DSI Foods Limited (Interpleader Claimant) [2010] EWHC 1270

9. The Claimant recognises that this is an ex-parte application and that by definition this excludes the Respondent from giving evidence in its defence at this hearing. However at this stage I am only requesting that my car be returned to me due to unlawful actions and irregular distress by the Respondents’ agents. Such an order by the Court to that effect will not prejudice the Respondents’ position.
10. However written confirmation of the imminent threatened sale of my car by the bailiff company significantly prejudices my position as it would lead to the permanent loss of what is MY car. Any delay to this injunction application could well lead to the unlawful sale of my car and the bailiff’s retention of the all the money it realises over and above what it sends to the Council. It is not unusual for a bailiff company to sell a car as quickly as possible, hence the urgency of this matter

11. Taking a property without authority ie a warrant of execution is theft under Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968, whilst taking a car without the owner’s consent is theft under Section 12 of the Act. As Whyte & Co have reportedly taken my car to a secret location and have a track record of selling impounded cars quickly, the Court may be satisfied that the intention is to permanently deprive me of my property and possessions as defined by Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968. Parking enforcement is not an excuse for x Council to adopt the stunning anti-social policy of ‘Receive a parking ticket – forfeit your car’.

12. The Claimant therefore seek the Court’s permission for injunctive relief to have the car returned to Claimant until such time as Council and Whyte & Co or the bailiff show good and indisputable reasons for taking possession of my car as none of these have so far shown any good reason for taking possession of it. Any problems that Council has in returning the car are entirely self inflicted and thus for the Boroughs to sort out, though Claimant understand that the vehicle is currently in the custody of Second Defendant and its sales agents.

13. The Claimant would also be obliged if the Court will consider the amount of costs and damages that the Claimant have directly and indirectly acquired in this matter and request that the Court consents to the request for an injunction then such costs be either summarily assessed or later considered to be ‘in the cause’

The Claimant claims:

1. An Order be made to have the vehicle retuned immediately, plus alternative transport arrangements in the interim being:

a. Rental cars £150.00

b. Taxis £59.00

c. Use of public transport £35.00

d. Unused motor insurance on the vehicle including cancellation and amendment fees £75.00

e. £15 for each and every day you I am deprived the lawful use of the car for 30 days and £15 per day for each day until the replacement car is in place.

f. Getting the replacement car valeted £20, serviced £120.00 & MOT £49.95 to return it to road use £189.95

g. Vehicle depreciation and if the value is disputed then the Claimant applies to the costs or fees of the professional loss adjusting of the depreciation amount.

2. The sum of £609.95 described in paragraph one of this statement.

2. Statutory interest at 0.00022% daily from the date the money became due to the date payment is made being £4.03.

3. Litigant in Person hourly allowance for work done in researching and preparing this case for court as allowed under rule 46.3(5)(b) and rule 48.6(4) in Practice Direction 52.4 of the Civil Procedure Rules at £I8 per hour for 30 of £540 and

4. Consultation fees and miscellaneous related costs, £395.00

5. Miscellaneous costs fees and expenses allowed by the court.



Thank you,



Happy Contrails wrote:
bcm wrote:Hi Monkeynuts,
I have done that a affidavit signed in front of a solicitors was sent to the Council, yet thet refused to release the car and advised me to issue proceeding against the bailiffs. .


You issue proceedings against the council, and this article shows what damages you can recover.

I wouldn't sue the bailiffs as a sole defendant because the council is liable for any wrongful action made by bailiffs under their charge.

If you want to, you can take this as an opportunity to exploit this and get a nice new car and a few quid out of it. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Re ... Tenner.htm
bcm
 
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#15) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 09 Jul 2013 14:33

Can you post a copy of the court order, remove your personal details.
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#16) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 09 Jul 2013 16:04

Hi Happy Contrails
Here is the Order,

1. The Defendant are forbidden from selling or otherwise parting with poseesion of the vehilce Rreg no from & after service of this order upon them.
This order shall remain in force until it is revoked by further order of the COurt

It is further ordered that

2. The Defendant may apply to make representation as soon as just & convenient at a full hearing or otherwise to vary or discharge this order giving no less than 7 days written notice supported by sworn statement on the Claimant.

Notice of Further hearing.
.........................................................................................whic is set for t/e 30mins

Please advice.

Thank you
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#17) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 09 Jul 2013 19:50

It means the court accepts your car has been seized for someone elses liability and you now have an opportunity to make representations to the council.

When its time to settle up costs and claim damages, remember you can charge £20 per day of deprivation of its use.
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#18) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 09 Jul 2013 21:15

Thank you for your reply. I have sent a copy of the Court order to the Council and here is the copy of the reply; I would appreciate any help or a drafted letter to the Council; thank you

Afther serving the Court here with prohibit Council from selling the vehilce, I got this response, please help. thanks

RE: Request for the release of Vehicle

I refer to your email of 3rd July and attached letter dated 14th June 2013 in which you stated that the complaint remains unresolved as “final resolution” was not marked on our response dated 26th June 2013 and your further email of 5th July sent to Ms Ade which had an Injunction Order form County Court attached.

Please be informed that your initial correspondence with the council dated 14th June was dealt with as an enquiry and not a complaint because it is in relation to an open Penalty Charge Notice and is something that you could go to court about. In general, matters relating to penalty charge notices are dealt with under procedures set out in the Traffic Management Act 2004 and are exempt from the Council’s complaints procedure.

According to our records, you have provided the following:

• Hand written sales agreement
• V5C showing new keeper
• V5C/2 new keeper supplement
• A sworn Affidavit
• A picture of the vehicle's keys
• A copy of your driver's licence
• A MOT Certificate

In our previous correspondence, we informed you that the documentation needed for the release of the vehicle is as follows:

• A letter from the DVLA dated prior to when the vehicle was seized showing a request for the keeper details to be amended;
• A certificate of insurance in your name for the vehicle dated prior to when the vehicle was seized;
• Bill of sale or a valid receipt of purchase dated prior to when the vehicle was seized (preferably not hand written);
• Evidence of flow of monies for the purchase of the vehicle dated prior to the date of seizure. (I.e. bank statement);
• A copy of the full V5 Log book, processed by the DVLA prior to the date of our seizure of the vehicle;
• A copy of the advert of sale of the vehicle dated prior to the date of seizure.

At least 4 out of the above 6 items must be provided with the certificate of insurance as a key requirement. You have provided 2 out of the 6 items and have not provided the Certificate of insurance.

According to section 15 of the Enforcement and Road Traffic Debt Order 1993 a warrant of execution against goods issued by an authority shall bind the property in the goods of the respondent from the time of which the warrant was issued to the enforcement officer. Therefore ------- was not legally allowed to sell or dispose of the vehicle until the warrant was discharged.

I appreciate that section 15 of the act is subject to paragraph 2 which states that “Such a warrant shall not prejudice the title to any goods of the respondent acquired by a person in good faith and for valuable consideration unless he had at the time when he acquired his title—

(a) Notice that an application for the issue of a warrant of execution against the goods of the respondent had been made to the district judge of a county court and that the warrant issued on the application remained unexecuted in the hands of the district judge of that court or of another court to which the warrant had been sent for execution;

(b) Notice that a writ of fieri facias or other writ of execution by virtue of which the respondent’s goods might be seized or attached had been delivered to and remained unexecuted in the hands of the sheriff; or

(c) Notice that an authority had made a request to issue a warrant against the respondent’s goods and that the warrant issued after that request remained unexecuted”.

However, you have not been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you bought the vehicle in good faith. For this reason, I would advise that you take the case up with the vendor who may have sold the vehicle to you illegally.

As stated previously, this is not being dealt with as a complaint for the reason mentioned above and this response is our final resolution subject to you providing more evidence to prove ownership.

In our previous response you were advised that if you wish to pursue your claim of ownership of the vehicle and prevent the sale you must issue proceedings with the Court against the bailiffs and it will be for the judge to decide if you have a case. The Injunction order which you have sent shows that you have issued proceedings against the Council. The Order has forbidden the Council from selling or parting with possession of vehicle from and after service of the order but does not order the Council to release the vehicle. I can confirm that the bailiffs have not sold the vehicle but as the documents you have provided at this point are not deemed to be sufficient for the release of the vehicle, they will hold unto it until they can prove ownership of the vehicle.

I trust my response addresses your concerns and the information provided is useful.
bcm
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 04 Jul 2013 10:51

#19) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 09 Jul 2013 21:34

The council is not right by saying you can still go to court about the open Penalty Charge Notice. You cannot appeal someone elses PCN.

The Traffic Management Act does not apply to you because you have not received a PCN regulated under the Act.

The council is incorrect about the level of documents it wants from you and could be construed as being frivolous and vexatious. You just need to make a sworn affidavit proving ownership and that satisfied proof of ownership in law.

Documents such as an MOT certificate, drivers license and photos of the keys do not prove ownership so you can open a separate new formal complaint on the grounds the council is vexatious and giving you wrong and misleading advice exposing you to an unlaweful loss. Ask they pay you £500 to settle the complaint or you will go to the Local Govcernment Ombudsman.

You need to remind them that costs continue to accrue at £20 per day plus damages and out of pocket expenses for replacement transport needs.

An affidavitr needcs to be sworn before a solicitor or a commissioner of Oaths, make three copies, one for the court, one for the council and one is your file copy. You can add a £100 charge to your bill for your time in sorting out the affidavit. The council can do the penny pinching later.

Sworn affidavit of [NAME]


I [FULL NAME] residing at [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] do hereby solemnly affirm and say as follows:

That I am the lawful owner of motor vehicle [NAME AND MODEL] registration [ABC123] and I further declare that [NAME OF REGISTERED KEEPER] of [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] is responsible for its use on the road.

And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the Statutory Declarations Act 1835



__________________ ________________
(Signature of applicant)


Declared at: ___________________________________________________
(Place where sworn)



ON THIS DAY THE____________________ ________________________
(Date in words)



BEFORE ME__________________________________________
(Solicitor / Commissioner of Oath / Notary Public)
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs.
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here
jasonDWB
 
Posts: 9693
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23

#20) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 10 Jul 2013 17:28

Hi Jason,

This is all been done, a sworn affidavit have been signed in front of a solicitors and yet the Council is refusing to release the vehicle.
The Judge has put a stop for them not to sell my vehicle but the Council would not release. Can you please help me. I am very new to this and really don't know what to do anymore.

Please can you help me with a letter

thanks

jasonDWB wrote:The council is not right by saying you can still go to court about the open Penalty Charge Notice. You cannot appeal someone elses PCN.

The Traffic Management Act does not apply to you because you have not received a PCN regulated under the Act.

The council is incorrect about the level of documents it wants from you and could be construed as being frivolous and vexatious. You just need to make a sworn affidavit proving ownership and that satisfied proof of ownership in law.

Documents such as an MOT certificate, drivers license and photos of the keys do not prove ownership so you can open a separate new formal complaint on the grounds the council is vexatious and giving you wrong and misleading advice exposing you to an unlaweful loss. Ask they pay you £500 to settle the complaint or you will go to the Local Govcernment Ombudsman.

You need to remind them that costs continue to accrue at £20 per day plus damages and out of pocket expenses for replacement transport needs.

An affidavitr needcs to be sworn before a solicitor or a commissioner of Oaths, make three copies, one for the court, one for the council and one is your file copy. You can add a £100 charge to your bill for your time in sorting out the affidavit. The council can do the penny pinching later.

Sworn affidavit of [NAME]


I [FULL NAME] residing at [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] do hereby solemnly affirm and say as follows:

That I am the lawful owner of motor vehicle [NAME AND MODEL] registration [ABC123] and I further declare that [NAME OF REGISTERED KEEPER] of [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] is responsible for its use on the road.

And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the Statutory Declarations Act 1835



__________________ ________________
(Signature of applicant)


Declared at: ___________________________________________________
(Place where sworn)



ON THIS DAY THE____________________ ________________________
(Date in words)



BEFORE ME__________________________________________
(Solicitor / Commissioner of Oath / Notary Public)
bcm
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 04 Jul 2013 10:51

#21) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 10 Jul 2013 17:56

You tell them to return your car or pay you the replacement cost of your car. We don't have a library template but you tot up all your disbursements and ask they pay within 14 days plus £20 per day they have had it. Simple letter.
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs.
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here
jasonDWB
 
Posts: 9693
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23

#22) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby bcm » 12 Jul 2013 11:45

Hi Jason,

I have done all of this and still the Council is refusing to release the vehicle, is there any further advice or assistance you give me on this matter please.

Many thanks

jasonDWB wrote:You tell them to return your car or pay you the replacement cost of your car. We don't have a library template but you tot up all your disbursements and ask they pay within 14 days plus £20 per day they have had it. Simple letter.
bcm
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 04 Jul 2013 10:51

#23) 

Re: Bailiff removed car for someone else's PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 12 Jul 2013 12:02

I am amazed the council refused your affidavit. That will probably go against them when it all end up in court.

The court has only stopped the council selling the car, but without seeing actual court documents, it's very difficult for me to comment.

You can ask the council to pay you damages and get a new car: plus £20 a day for deprivation of its use. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Re ... Tenner.htm

I know it's frustrating because you can't even appeal the ticket, it's not even yours.

Start by sending the council the bill and set a deadline for them to pay you. Remind them this PCN is the previous owner's name and the council is liable for the bailiff company.
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs.
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here
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