Jacobs and unpaid PCN

The law: Part 75 of the Civil Procedure Rules.
#1) 

Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby andybrown.67 » 11 May 2013 12:21

Hi. At my wits end with Jacobs. Here's a brief account of whats happened up to now. Unpaid pcn. original fine £82.00. received bailiffs first letter. Forgot about it. Received hand delivered "removal 48 hours notice", demanding £225.04. (first visit). Questioned charges with bailiff. £96.00 of total was for "attending to remove fee". Researched the subject. Bailiff told me over phone that they came for the car. car is subject to hp agreement. Told them this but was informed "charge still stands". Assured by national debt line that they can only charge 28% of original fine plus vat and first letter fee plus vat.. Decided to pay council directly via payment line. Payment accepted. Informed bailiff in a heated exchange that fine had been paid, and that i was only willing to pay their legitimate costs. Bailiff called next day adding a further £40.80 to costs. Complained to LA. LA not willing to deal with complaint. Sent formal complaint plus cheque for £47.04 (correct costs) to Bailiffs. Received response. THIS IS THE CONFUSING PART. My whole argument is that no levy is in place, so no removal fee is applicable. My car belongs to finance company, so charge not applicable. their response is this "A levy is not applicable on a warrant" and that "the ATR can be applied providing residency is confirmed". Are they lying, or have i not researched thoroughly enough? I know £96 isn't a fortune but the principle remains the same. I feel i'm being ripped off. Thanks in advance.
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#2) 

Re: Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby monkeynuts » 11 May 2013 12:27

IF there has been no levy then the other fees are not permited by law!

The fees they can charge you are here:
http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/examplepcnfee.htm

So by my calculation the most they can ask for is about £40.

Do you have what they are claiming in writing?
http://www.suethebailiff.co.uk
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#3) 

Re: Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby andybrown.67 » 11 May 2013 12:38

Yes i have everything. I really have researched the subject thanks to sites and forums such as this, but when i received their response, a seed of doubt was sewn. I thought a Bailiff had to have a warrant in every case and they have to levy on goods before they can take them, (which they haven't). The wording of the response makes it sound as though they can just turn up and take stuff without a levy. Also, confirmation of residency?? Not come across this before..
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#4) 

Re: Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby monkeynuts » 11 May 2013 12:45

Bailiff maim aim is profit! They are renowned cheaters and liars!

In order to remove goods they MUST have a valid warrant and a valid levy over your goods. Their fees are prescribed in law and anything other than what is prescribed you have no obligation to pay.

They use letters (probably similar to the one you got) to intimidate vulnerable people into paying excessive ammouts.

Luckily for you your eyes where opened!

All the warrant does is basically say "you are commanded to collect £x from y in accordance with the law" or words to that effect.

The ATR is a load of BS and they know it and must be sitting in a pile of manure when writing that! Ignore it!

YOu could reply with:

Thank you for confirming you are indeed acting outside the law which you must follow when collecting fines of this nature, I will now see that the appropriate authorities are aware.
http://www.suethebailiff.co.uk
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#5) 

Re: Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 11 May 2013 13:47

andybrown.67 wrote: Complained to LA. LA not willing to deal with complaints. Sent formal complaint plus cheque for £47.04 (correct costs) to Bailiffs. Received response. THIS IS THE CONFUSING PART. My whole argument is that no levy is in place, so no removal fee is applicable. My car belongs to finance company, so charge not applicable. their response is this "A levy is not applicable on a warrant" and that "the ATR can be applied providing residency is confirmed". Are they lying, or have i not researched thoroughly enough? I know £96 isn't a fortune but the principle remains the same. I feel i'm being ripped off. Thanks in advance.


You have researched right.

Ask the local council to pay you damages of £250 in a formal complaint letter and LBA for giving wrong legal advice. It doesn't matter if the bailiff gove the wrong advice, the council is liable.

Ignore the excuse letter from the bailiff, file the Form N1, and keep ignoring the bailiff's excuse letter, and you eventually get £250 in your pocket plus costs and expenses for a day off work clearing it up.

It is up to the council if they charge your damages payout on to the bailiff company. Most do, some dont.
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#6) 

Re: Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby andybrown.67 » 11 May 2013 14:22

Hi. Thanks for that. What is LBA though? Its not that the council gave me wrong advice, it's just that they refused to deal with it point blank. Here's what i sent them

April 7th 2013
PCN Number: ***********2

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that Case Law has ruled that an Authority is liable for its Bailiffs.
On March twenty-eighth, 2013, a Bailiff by the name of Mr ************, representing Jacobs Certified Bailiffs, called at my home regarding an unpaid PCN of £75.00 and posted a letter demanding the sum of £225.04, to be paid within forty eight hours, or goods would be removed. This was his first visit.
I rang Mr ********** to enquire about the costs and he informed me that ¬£96.00 of the total was for an ‚Äúattendance to remove fee‚ÄĚ.
As I am sure you are no doubt aware, the Bailiffs Schedule of Charges are prescribed by law and, apart from a first letter fee of ¬£11.20 (plus VAT), for any fine up to or less than ¬£100.00, a fee of ¬£28.00 (plus VAT) is applicable. The Bailiff does not have to levy in relation to a PCN, but can only apply ‚Äúreasonable costs‚ÄĚ, which are to be no more than had he levied on goods.
As my vehicle is subject to a Hire Purchase Agreement, and no other goods in my home were levied on, Then the Attendance to Remove fee is invalid.
I informed the Bailiff that I disputed the fee and made an offer of payment for the correct fees. The offer was refused.
On April 3 2013, I paid the fine directly to the Local Authority (see enclosed receipt) and informed the Bailiff accordingly. The next day, however, Mr ********** saw fit to call again, leaving another letter and adding another £40.00 costs to the bill.
I am very aware that this situation is mostly of my own making for failing to pay the original PCN, and I am more than willing to pay any lawful Bailiffs fees. The Fine has now been paid in full to yourselves and I request that you put a stop to any further Bailiff action.
If I do not receive a satisfactory response to this recorded delivery letter, then I will have no alternative but to complain to the Local Government Ombudsman.
Yours faithfully, ********

and here's the response

Thank you for contacting us.

I have looked at the circumstances surrounding the Penalty Charge Notice and your case was passed to Jacobs bailiff on 27 February 2013 as a warrant had been issued to recover the outstanding payment of £82 from Northampton County Court.

Once the case has been passed to the bailiff and recovery action has commenced customers must liaise with the bailiff on how payment is to be made. Whilst I understand you paid the Council separately, as the bailiff has incurred charges in the recovery process they are entitled to recoup their costs. Any queries relating to the bailiff costs or their team members must be directed to Jacobs and not the Council.

It would not be appropriate for the Council to ask the bailiff to place your case on hold as they are entitled to pursue their costs as part of the court warrant.

Your complaint has been dealt with at Stage 1 of the Council’s Corporate Complaints Policy. If you remain dissatisfied with this response you have 21 working days to write to the Solutions Team, at Cheshire West and Chester Council, HQ, Nicholas Street, Chester CH1 2NP requesting that your complaint be escalated to Stage 2. Please quote the reference number as indicated on this letter and clearly state why you are unhappy with the outcome of Stage 1 and what your expected outcomes are. Your complaint will then be escalated and investigated by a senior manager and you will receive a response within 20 working days of the Solutions Team receiving your letter.
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#7) 

Re: Jacobs and unpaid PCN

Postby jasonDWB » 11 May 2013 14:43

andybrown.67 wrote:Hi. Thanks for that. What is LBA though? It's not that the council gave me wrong advice, it's just that they refused to deal with it point blank. Here's what i sent them


You need to make this complaint in writing otherwise the council and bailiffs will take no notice of you. They will say "the case is closed". You can open a new case.

An LBA is a Letter Before Action. You must give the council a reasonable opportunity to refund your money and pay your damages before you start a claim in the small claims court.




andybrown.67 wrote:
I have looked at the circumstances surrounding the Penalty Charge Notice and your case was passed to Jacobs bailiff on 27 February 2013 as a warrant had been issued to recover the outstanding payment of £82 from Northampton County Court.

Once the case has been passed to the bailiff and recovery action has commenced customers must liaise with the bailiff on how payment is to be made. Whilst I understand you paid the Council separately, as the bailiff has incurred charges in the recovery process they are entitled to recoup their costs. Any queries relating to the bailiff costs or their team members must be directed to Jacobs and not the Council.

It would not be appropriate for the Council to ask the bailiff to place your case on hold as they are entitled to pursue their costs as part of the court warrant.

Your complaint has been dealt with at Stage 1 of the Council’s Corporate Complaints Policy. If you remain dissatisfied with this response you have 21 working days to write to the Solutions Team, at Cheshire West and Chester Council, HQ, Nicholas Street, Chester CH1 2NP requesting that your complaint be escalated to Stage 2. Please quote the reference number as indicated on this letter and clearly state why you are unhappy with the outcome of Stage 1 and what your expected outcomes are. Your complaint will then be escalated and investigated by a senior manager and you will receive a response within 20 working days of the Solutions Team receiving your letter.


It appears you have already given the council an opportunity to refund your money and I don't know if you asked to pay you damages for being given wrongful advice causing you an unlawful loss.

Your post doesn't say what redress you are looking for, but there are plenty of routes open to you.

1. Write back to the council, and ask for compensation and damages and this time, mark your letter "Formal complaint and letter before action", wait 7 days, then file a Form N1 (see the template in the pack) to start court proceedings then allocate the claim into the small claims track at your home court. Wait to you either get paid or you can go before the judge and tell him everything the bailiffs did to you.

2. Make a form 4 complaint. The following article explains more about making a form 4 complaint because the bailiff is dishonest and ought not to have exposed you to the risk of an unlawful loss. Bailiffs are prohibited by law from charging fees not in the prescribed statutory scale. Rule 10 of the Distress for Rent 1988 rules prohibit bailiffs from charging fees not in the prescribed scale, and the terms of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 were adopted by Regulation 2 of the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations 1993

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Ba ... plaint.htm

3. You can make a complaint to police, as the law does make this matter a criminal offence. But be prepared to be stonewalled, but that in its self can be exploited and you can begin a claim for damages against the police force for failing to investigate a crime when it has been reported to them.
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